Henry Rollins Comments On Steubenville Rape Verdict

henry rollins

One story that has captivated our staff and nation in recent months is the tale of a sixteen-year-old girl from Steubenville, Ohio who was raped by two high school football players last summer. Yesterday morning, an Ohio court found the two teens charged in the case, Trent Mays (17) and Ma’lik Richmond (16), guilty and sentenced them to at least one year in juvenile jail. They could be held until they are 21 years old. Mays was sentenced to an additional year for a charge related to distributing nude images of a minor. More details on that can be found here.

As you can probably imagine, the reaction to this conviction has been loud and divided, with many turning to their internet to vent. One of those people, punk legend Henry Rollins, posted a lengthy blog yesterday afternoon focusing on the verdict and what the case means on a much larger scale. You can read his words below.

03-17-13

For the last couple of hours, I have been thinking of the verdict that was reached in what is now known as the Steubenville rape case.

Since all involved are minors, I won’t use anyone’s name. Two juvenile males were found delinquent of the charges and will be, as far as I understand, incarcerated in a juvenile detention facility until they are twenty-one years of age.

There is, I guess, cell phone generated video content of parts of the crime. It went “viral” on the internet and brought attention to the events.

I got through a few minutes of it but was too disgusted to watch the rest.

The case, the verdict and the surrounding circumstances open up a huge conversation.

These are a few of the things that I have been thinking about.

After reading several posts online, I was not surprised at the vast range of sentiments expressed. Many of the postings were of outrage that the two found delinquent were not tried as adults so they would face much longer sentences. You might not know, but in some states, this sentence would be decades long. Many of the posts spoke of the damage done to the victim and the life she will have now. One person suggested caning the two young men. Many others were angered at the deification of high school football players and how they often receive special treatment. You can read this stuff all day if you want.

After reading posts for quite awhile, I thought first about the two young men. I wondered if the years in the facility will “help” them. What, exactly does one “learn” in one of these places? That is to say, after five years locked away, does the idea of assaulting a woman seem like the wrong thing to do, more than if you were incarcerated for one year? Would you be “more sorry” about what you did? Is that possible? Or, would you just be more sorry for yourself about where your actions landed you? At what point do you get “better”, how many years in one of these places does that take?

What made these young people think that that what they did was ok? What was in their upbringing, the information and morals instilled in them that allowed them to do what they did, minute after minute, laughing, joking, documenting it and then calling it a night and going home? Out of all the people who were witness to what happened, why wasn’t there someone putting a stop to it?

What I am attempting to get at, and I apologize if I am not being clear enough is that this is a failure on many levels. Parents, teachers, coaches, peers all come into play here. I am not trying to diffuse blame or lessen the awfulness of what happened but I want to address the complexity of the cause in an effort to assess the effect so it can be prevented.

Some might say that the two going to the youth facility are as much victims as the young women who was assaulted. I do not agree. The two are offenders. What they did was obviously wrong. That being said, we cannot end the discussion at that point and expect things to change.

I have yet to say anything about the damage done to the young woman involved. It is ironic and sad that the person who is going to do a life sentence is her.

As a testament to the horrific power of sexual assault, I encourage you to see, yet cannot recommend the documentary The Invisible War about sexual assault in the military. http://invisiblewarmovie.com/. The reason I say that I cannot recommend it is that it is so well done, so clear and devastating that it will put you through quite a wringer. I do hope you see it but damn, it’s hard. In the interviews with women who have been assaulted by fellow members, the damage that has been done to these good people is monumental.

Many people are angry that more time was not given to the offenders. This seems to be the prevailing sentiment. I understand the anger but don’t know if adding a decade onto their sentences would be of any benefit. To me, the problem that needs to be addressed is where in the information chain were the two offenders made to understand that what they did was not wrong on every possible level? You can execute them both tomorrow but still, there is a problem that needs to be dealt with.

It’s a situation where you would like to be able to point a finger and say, that’s the reason and be done. You have to be careful when you do this because it’s easy to miss.

I think to a great degree, we humans still divide ourselves into two species, even though we are monotypic. There are males and females. We see them as different and not equal. Things get better when women get more equality. That is a bit obvious but I think it leads to better results up the road. If it’s a man’s world as they say, then men, your world is a poorly run carnage fest.

It is obvious that the two offenders saw the victim as some one that could be treated as a thing. This is not about sex, it is about power and control. I guess that is what I am getting at. Sex was probably not the hardest thing for the two to get, so that wasn’t the objective. When you hear the jokes being made during the crime, it is the purest contempt.

So, how do you fix that? I’m just shooting rubber bands at the night sky but here are a few ideas: Put women’s studies in high school the curriculum from war heroes to politicians, writers, speakers, activists, revolutionaries and let young people understand that women have been kicking ass in high threat conditions for ages and they are worthy of respect.

Total sex ed in school. Learn how it all works. Learn what the definition of statutory rape is and that it is rape, that date rape is rape, that rape is rape.

In the spirit of equal time, sites like Huffington Post should have sections for male anatomy hanging out instead of just the idiotic celebrity “side boob” and “nip slip” camera ops. I have no idea what that would be like to have a camera in my face at every turn, looking for “the” shot. I know what some of you are saying. “Then why do they wear clothes like that unless they want those photos taken?” I don’t know what to tell ya. Perhaps just don’t take the fuckin picture? Evolve? I don’t know.

Education, truth, respect, equality—these are the things that can get you from a to b very efficiently.

It must be an awful time for the parents of all three of these people and their relatives and I hope they all get to a better place soon.

What else? That’s all I’ve got. Thanks for reading this. Henry

(source)

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  • http://www.facebook.com/Khaboh Chris Richardson

    I agree, a ‘little’ different. Every time a republican says something sexually ugly on the hill the myth is perpetuated that this kind of ugliness takes a specific form of action against a specific kind of person. It’s about the base ugliness, or should be. It happens to boys, and is as serious. It happens to adults, and is as serious. Conversations up to and including this one are the precise reason why it is still not fully uncovered as a sickness. If you are not truly seeking the lowest common denominator affected (btw: people), then you’re just not mathematically ready to implement any good change.

    But that’s where it comes from. As for what to do about it: well, do we not teach our children so very much that their manners are there to prevent people from reacting to them a certain way? Do we not so often observe the child who is simply not going to learn until consequences become real? Well, then…

  • racsokitty

    Didn’t take long to find the first idiot to make it political.

  • http://www.facebook.com/tyler.ryley Tyler Ryley

    Not passing judgement, just trying to lightly remind that nothing good ever comes of violence that could be avoided. Ever! There’s ALWAYS a better way to problem solve than to beat your club against the cave floor. It’s easy to give into things like boiling rage, but it’s not always what’s best. I think that a mother who goes and gets herself locked up is hurting her child more than she’s helping it.

  • WT

    You tried to “comfort her”… by telling her the next victim’s blood is on her hands? Great effort there.

  • http://www.facebook.com/leesympson Lee Sympson

    Thank you, Henry Rollins.

  • http://twitter.com/TheNuszAbides TheNuszAbides

    i guess his self-assessment of being ‘average’ was accurate (filtered through some kind of punk rock performer modification of course). no idea whether he’s restated such a thing recently. i’m sorry that happened to you (but of course he’s the one who should be sorry about that). i certainly won’t make excuses for either of those quotes. every celebrity, ideally, should mind their ego and mind that their personal tastes don’t get expressed blatantly offensively, and of course they should be called out whenever they fail to show their audience (even one member, unless they’re giving a nazi salute or something) respect.
    but i still think this piece is worthy. among the male responses to the steubenville verdict that i’ve seen, tim wise’s was predictably more socially astute. but this wasn’t bad for a guy whose oeuvre seems to largely revolve around confidence, honesty, isolation and violation. and raging onstage. “sucker! i am a liar…”

  • http://www.facebook.com/JennaFarrLudwig Jenna Farr Ludwig

    A lot has been written about this event. A lot must go unsaid until we have a better container in which to hold our thoughts. But I commend you for putting the heinous deed of rape in perspective for all of us…mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, teachers, churches, schools, all of us…to contemplate our unconscious complicity in this crime, and for ideas on how to go about helping to prevent its occurrence in the future. The most important aspect that anyone can understand about rape is that it is about abuse of power and dominance and rage. It is a crime against another human being that has very little to do with ‘sex’ per se. I, too, saw some of the aftermath footage…the laughter, the denigration of a young ravished woman, the complete unfeeling for her predicament and what this might do to her entire future. This endemic problem has to cut off at the root, uprooted and replaced with something decent and supportive of healthy human behavior. Thank you, Henry Rollins.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Cedar-Cat/100000282706489 Cedar Cat

    I hope that in my lifetime, women will be treated as people. And yes, it is a matter of power over (domination) and control. It seems to me that men treat women the same way they treat the planet. As disposable, made for their exploitation and profit. Every person begins life as female in the womb. I hope that the males of the future can connect with their inner female and treat women as people. Different from men, and people all the same. We could do so much more working side by side, don’t you think?

  • http://twitter.com/DrCarmine Smithjonesdoe

    Until we are ready to make drunken teenage debauchery the culprit rather than just two of the many drunks involved this will continue. We raise our girls and our boys to glorify “skankiness” and wild sexual stupidity. Yet only the boys are punished, somehow only the boys are expected to act like adults.

  • vegangsterARNP

    Because I believe in equality for all, or because I have no television? Douche

  • MrEFQ

    Keep on trolling. Troll.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Carmen-Speer/657635490 Carmen Speer

    This is to those who believe the girl was also responsible, and to those who don’t believe women who claim to have been raped more than once:

    The responsibility for a crime is on
    the person who chooses to commit the crime, whether they were drunk
    or not. Getting drunk is not a “get out of rape free” card
    or a built-in defense. Drunk drivers who kill someone can be charged
    with homicide; if two drunk drivers collide, the drunk driver who was
    in the wrong–who ran the red light, or skidded out–will be
    convicted, not let off because the victim was also drunk (or may have
    had a few drinks).

    Same goes for murder victims. “I’m
    just saying, he shouldn’t have gone around making people mad.”

    “What was he doing in that neighborhood at night?”
    “What was she doing being friends with that person?”

    People can be reckless for a variety of
    reasons. Youth is one of them; we know now the prefrontal cortex, the
    seat of reason, does not fully develop until about the mid-twenties.
    Even then our frontal cortex continues developing into our forties;
    we humans really do take the longest to reach the peak of our
    critical thinking abilities. A part of this is making mistakes. (This
    is why they say “youth is wasted on the young.”). To the
    extent that we do hold people responsible for their actions, people
    must be held responsible for the crimes they commit, regardless of
    what the victim was doing.

    Mental illness is another reason people
    will be reckless. In fact, women who have been raped once are very
    likely to be raped again–they have a much higher chance than women
    who have not been raped (whether because the first rape caused a
    mental illness that makes them more likely to be victimized
    again–PTSD, drug and alcohol abuse–or because they were mentally
    ill in the first place). Why are many women who are raped raped more
    than once? Because of factors ranging from personality to life
    experience and background, and mental illness. Minorities, poor
    women, physically or developmentally disabled women, women who suffer
    from drug or alcohol addictions (which are diseases), and mentally
    ill women are all more likely to be raped, because they are easier
    for predators to take advantage of.

    I have bipolar disorder. In a
    depression, I am unable to stand up for myself, fearful, and easily
    cowed. In a manic episode, I might go out and do tons of drugs, drink
    a lot, and sleep with men I never would sleep with if not manic; this
    is a good phase for men to take advantage of me, too. Most of the
    time this falls under the heading of “skeezy behavior,” not
    rape. However, if I am too drunk to consent, and my attacker knows
    this (his knowledge of this implies he is much more sober than I am),
    it is legally rape. If his blood test shows he was considerably more
    sober, this is something he should have known, i.e. do not have sex
    with drunk women (I’d say especially strange drunk women, but I think
    it’s also wise to not do this with your girlfriend, unless there is
    explicit ongoing consent to this sort of situation that she’s given
    sober in the past). Particularly don’t intend to hit on drunk women
    in order to get into their pants; if she’s drunk and hitting on you,
    and doesn’t remember in the morning, and you really didn’t know how
    drunk she was–well, this is called plausible deniability, and the
    fact that it might be true in some cases gets a lot of men off the
    hook (it’s easy for them to say “she came onto me” when she
    didn’t; and some men get roaring drunk with the intent of taking home
    an equally drunk woman who would probably not sleep with them sober,
    again for “plausible deniability.” This is
    unprosecutable–rape is always difficult because of “he said/she
    said”–but nonetheless immoral behavior, which we actually
    sanction in this society as a way to get into women’s pants). And
    clearly, if I say “no” but am unable to defend myself
    because I’m too drunk, this is rape.

    People make mistakes. We must also keep
    in mind that rape is a form of policing women and keeping them out of
    men’s public spaces. Women who travel alone–doing something unsafe.
    Women who get drunk at bars (even if with friends)–doing something
    unsafe. Women who drink with male friends–doing something unsafe.
    Women who even have male friends, women who let male acquaintances
    walk them home alone, women who like to go home with men they don’t
    know (which yes, can and often does turn into rape)–this is all a
    way of policing women’s mobility, activity, and sexuality. Women
    should be “good girls,” stay home, not go out at night
    alone, only travel with friends (preferably with male escorts
    included, like boyfriends or husbands), they should not drink, they
    should not have casual sex. This all means “be a good girl, get
    a boyfriend, start a traditional nuclear family,” etc. etc.
    Women do not have a right to be wild, to be different, to be
    independent, the way that men do.

    Men travel alone, get drunk, party, go
    out at night, sleep around, and are friends with whomever they want.
    Sometimes when they do this too much there are consequences, but
    generally one night of too much carousing (as long as they don’t
    drive) won’t have too many consequences. Nor will any of the rest of
    it, if they are careful (i.e., use condoms to avoid diseases and
    getting women pregnant, which women have to do, too). An active
    polyamarous sexual life does not put a man at a high risk of rape.

    People will say, “Well, this is
    just human behavior, it’s a fact of life.” This is a reductivist
    and unproven “evolutionary biology” theory. We need to stop
    victim blaming and teach men early on, from the time they are
    children, to respect women as people and not to rape. Western
    culture–in fact, cultures all over the world–continue to treat
    women as objects for men’s use, and to punish those women who either
    conform too much or too little to that standard with rape (i.e.,
    women who internalize that objectifation and allow themselves to be
    used or seek male attention–as is also taught in society,
    particularly for women with low self-esteem about their
    appearance–or women who want to be too independent, to be able to do
    the things they want that include risk and have the sexual life they
    want without being raped; even women who take precautions while
    pursuing such independence are much more likely to be raped than
    “good” girls).

    I felt raped once, when I went out with
    a friend to celebrate. I had low alcohol tolerance and we were at a
    Ladies’ Night that gave us ten cent wells. We went to another bar,
    she went to use the restroom. A man–considerably less drunk than
    I–came in then (just before closing time, when there are most likely
    to be drunk women), scanned the bar, came over to me, sat down,
    bought me a drink, and asked me if I wanted to come to a party. He
    had two friends with him, a couple, who said it would be fun. He
    seemed safe. I told him I wanted to wait for my friend to come back.
    He told me there was a taxi waiting, I had to come now–my friend
    would probably have told me this was not a good idea, I was too
    drunk–and he took me by the arm and took me outside. I passed out
    shortly after I got to the party, and woke up naled in his bed.

    I felt this was predatory behavior, and
    as I had been sexually assaulted many times (while sober) as a young
    woman and as a teenager, and molested as a kid, and never really
    talked about it much, it all came flooding back when this happened,
    and I started having nightmares and hypervigilance, flashbacks. I
    basically had a breakdown, was diagnosed with PTSD, and put on
    Prozac.

    I did go to the police, who dismissed
    me without filing charges because I had been drinking and had “chosen
    to go home with him.”

    The Prozac sent me into a major manic
    episode, because I had undiagnosed bipolar disorder (which had
    started around age 16, and accounts a lot for how vulnerable I was to
    men’s predations). I began sleeping around and drinking a lot, doing
    tons of drugs, took out loans, spent a lot of money (all classic
    symptoms of mania). Drinking was a symptom–trying to self-medicate
    for the mania–but it also became a disease, a way of coping with my
    anger and anxiety. I realized what I was doing and stopped sleeping
    around, but I didn’t stop drinking. I was working as a waitress at a
    bar/restaurant where alcoholism was encouraged and we were given free
    drinks, which didn’t help.

    One night, my best friend and
    roommate’s crush came into where I was working. I knew him too; we
    were acquaintances. She used to ask me to chaperone sometimes while
    she teased him. We were very close, and I didn’t realize he was
    jealous of this; or that he saw me as protective of her (she had
    asked me to come along while she met up with him at times). They had
    had a huge fight two nights before–her fault, she was awful to
    him–which I didn’t know about. He came into my bar where I worked on
    a Saturday night. After we ended our shifts–the waitresses–we would
    start drinking. That night my fellow waitresses (the lifers) bought
    me shot after shot. They liked to get the new waitresses, the college
    students, drunk and then leave them alone with the customers. This
    was good for business, and was also a kind of petty revenge, as the
    young waitresses were more popular with regulars (there was no
    solidarity, no one looking out for anyone, at this bar).

    Eddie came over and sat next to me when
    they’d left. He bought me a few more drinks and we struck up a
    friendly conversation. He asked me where Beth was and I told him she
    was out of town (so I was alone at my place). I didn’t think twice
    about volunteering this information, as they were sort of informally
    dating, and I thought he might want to see her. When I said I was
    going to go home–around one in the morning–he said it was too
    dangerous for me to walk home alone, that he would escort me for
    safety. It wasn’t far.

    At my door I turned around to say
    goodnight. The whole walk home I’d been in and out of consciousness
    (blacking in and out). We had been having a friendly conversation.

    He walked in the door after me, shut
    it, pushed me against the wall and unbuttoned my shirt. I told him to
    stop, but was far too intoxicated to stop him.

    Of course she blamed me for “sleeping
    with him” (I could have gotten pregnant!). He succeeded in
    breaking up our friendship, as was his aim. I didn’t even consider
    going to the police after what had happened last time. I had to keep
    seeing him around town. He left me naked on my living room floor in
    front of the open full-length picture window–I lived in a complex
    and there were neighbors including frat boys around–and he slammed
    the door next to my head on his way out after he was done.

    My responsibility, right?

    I am now older and wiser. I don’t
    engage in risky or self-destructive behavior anymore. But we, as a
    nation, need to examine why young women do this (apart from the
    simple bad judgment of youth). Maybe they are being reckless
    teenagers, and they are raped as a result, and the resulting trauma
    of that rape leads to alcoholism and drug use (as it often does), and
    they are raped again, and blamed for it–a cycle. Maybe, like me,
    they were sexually exploited because of vulnerabilities like mental
    or physical disabilities, or marginalism (poor women and women of
    color. along with the addicted and the mentally ill, have the hardest
    time getting law enforcement to care about their cases).

    Can we have no compassion for such
    people?

    Men are the ones who need to be taught
    that they must not rape. Society needs to definitively stop this
    victim-blaming.

    I also have compassion for men who have
    been taught to treat women as objects all their lives–by the media,
    by media images all around them and pornography, by society–while
    parents and schools stay all but quiet on the subject.

    However that is what we should be
    addressing–”how can we stop treating women as objects in our
    society, and embrace their autonomy and encourage everyone to treat
    them with respect in all circumstances?” rather than “women
    need to not drink/travel alone/be careful of who they make friends
    with and date.”

    It is appalling that anyone thinks
    otherwise.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001300460959 Storm Dweller

    Not to mention that when it goes to court, the first thing to go on trial is the victim’s credibility and character. As if it wasn’t terrifying enough to have to face the person who raped you to begin with, then you have to deal with the defense attorney, who although is just doing their job, is setting about viciously calling you a liar and a slut. Not everything is cut and dry. Victims respond differently to their situations. Just as survivors find different ways to move on and not be victims anymore.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001300460959 Storm Dweller

    Thank you for reiterating what every rapist and abuser has ever told their victim, and once again letting them know it’s all their fault. Thank you for reinforcing that message for every single child who has managed to survive an attack completely beyond their comprehension, for which they got blamed, and threatened if the perpetrator even thought the victim might open their mouths.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Francesco-Jesus-Mariotti/1120212946 Francesco Jesus Mariotti

    If she had just one drink and was drugged that obviously means she’s not guilty. According to what I read she had several drinks of strong alcoholic beverages.

    But, generally speaking, while it doesn’t excuse a rape, it should also be clear that being drunk doens’t mean you are less responsible of your own behaviour.

  • http://www.facebook.com/rayven.michaels Rayven Michaels

    The problem is our society does and always has made T&A a big deal for men — you have car magazines with “hot babes” looking like they want to screw the cars or motorcycles, you have movies that think they have to have that boob shot or cooch shot which if it was missing, the movie would still make sense; and there are restaurants like Hooters that fixate on boobs; and then of course strip clubs; magazine ads selling some obscure item that you barely notice because of the sexual presentation of the model and on and on — in short our society still heavily promotes women as lust objects and so there are a lot of immature young men that think of women exactly like that — as lust/sex objects. And the saddest part of all, there is a sector of women who help promote this very thing. And this isn’t an attempt to blame the victims but women/girls do need to take their safety very very very seriously. It isn’t fair that they should have to but we do. When women are personified as “meat” for “sexually ravenous dogs”, women need to be very vigilant in protecting themselves. Don’t drink or drug and get helpless, don’t put yourself in isolated situations. And don’t depend on friends for your safety. It is shocking how many times other kids just turn a blind eye to what is happening, or laugh for gods sake, or even worse, break out the cellphone and plaster videos all over the internet. Our society does have some very sickening ways about it….

  • Mark Shelton

    Progressive thought tells us that moral failings are a lack of proper education. Mr. Rollin’s comments are consistent with and an example of such metaphysical assumptions. What is lacking is an understanding of the fall of man. We are evil by nature and unless we address that nature, things like this will continue to happen regardless of curriculum. Case in point, the world. The Enlightenment gave rise to World Wars and the Holocaust.

    What man needs is a Savior, not more education.

  • Luke R

    So Youre saying if a girl consents when shes Drunk and is all over a guy, she has no responsibility for her actions? I feel like in every case you’re placing blame on the male, which is b.s. In the steubenville case, it is the males fault, but If a girl consents even when she is drunk, That’s her own responsibility. You don’t have to explain common sense to me, but you should look at this unbiased. The stubenville case, I do not hold her accountable. It sounded like she was unresponsive, therefore she couldn’t consent.

  • John Thomas

    Crush the ego and walk the path of Light. that’s the fluffy way of putting it. 20 years of drinking hard and destroying everything in my path. Self medicating anxiety, fear, pain, guilt. Uncomfortable in my own skin. Even after I stopped drinking, i was miserable. I changed everything. That led to a spiritual awakening which led to so much freedom and healing. Everyone has pain. Some let it go to sociopath levels. There is another way.

  • John Thomas

    which in turn leads me to be a better husband and father; which in turn leads (hopefully) to less and quicker healing for the younger generations through modeling and positive reinforcement. We are a punitive country, we need to be preventative. That’s your prison problem, Mr. Rollins.

  • Luke R

    Once again bias against the male, where there is no responsibility expected out of the female. If a girl consents while she’s drunk, that is her responsibility, especially if both parties are intoxicated. So its up to the male to decide not to have sex when he’s drunk and a girl is all over him? The female gets to drunkenly consent and then the next day gets to call it rape? This case is a bad example, for this girl was unconscious, therefore its a whole different animal. But, based off your comment above it sounds like its always up to the male to say no, while the female is aloud to not have consequences for her drunk actions. It takes too to tango, have sex, make a baby, ect.

  • http://www.facebook.com/lilykep Lilia Exon-Primm

    Do you know how to read?
    Did you read my comment?
    Apparently not.

    “If you are SOBER enough to know that she’s drunk, DON’T HAVE SEX WITH HER”

    You know SOBER? That word that means not drunk?

    I never once said:

    “So its up to the male to decide not to have sex when he’s drunk and a girl is all over him? The female gets to drunkenly consent and then the next day gets to call it rape?”

    That was all you.

    HE is SOBER and SHE is DRUNK,

    HE is DRUNK and SHE is SOBER,

    IT IS RAPE.

    The SOBER person RAPES the DRUNK person

    The end.

  • Luke R

    I can read just fine thank you. I did read your comment, and its biased haha. Never once did you mention anywhere in your comment a situation where a girl has to be responsible. The part where you say He is Drunk she is sober never becomes a story, why is that? That NEVEEER happens right…? Also why is it when both parties are intoxicated, the male is blamed. Trust me that happens all the time. Is there some study that shows men are better at thinking when they’re drunk than women are therefore its up to the male to say no? (I know you never said this, I’m just bringing up a point What my issue is, females constantly are not held responsible for their drunk actions.) And i know thats what I said, but you implied it. MY issue is, almost always both parties are intoxicated, yet the male is the one who is seen as an “animal” and the girl is a victim. Please read this comment. Then take a look at my first comment. All i said is don’t put yourself in a bad situation. Thats just a lesson of life haha. You dont leave your house or car unlocked do you? Do you leave your keys in the ignition? Yeah people shouldnt rob your home or steal your car, but they do. Common knowledge, lesson of life. But then you went on the whole caps lock attack about men shouldnt have sex with drunk girls rant. Yeah we are all adults, so if you get so drunk you cant make your own decisions, thats your fault haha. If you want to put yourself in a bad situation, go for it. But don’t say I didnt told you so. And if you want to leave a well thought out reasonable comment go ahead I’ll read it and give it thought. If you are going to attack my intelligence and go on a caps lock rant then save the energy in your hand and finger muscles because I’m not gonna waste my time

  • Micheleh

    Even if someone leaves their car unlocked the decision to steal that car lies with the car thief, not the car owner. EVEN IF the door is unlocked, it is possible to walk past a car and not steal it.

    If a woman is drunk, even if she is begging for sex, it is possible to say no and not take the risk that you may be committing rape.

    I am so tired of the argument that a woman going out and getting drunk is like “leaving your car unlocked.”

    If you’re really worried about your car getting stolen you can leave it at home in its locked garage and take a cab or public transport. A woman can’t leave her vagina at home behind locked doors and go out without it.

  • http://www.facebook.com/lilykep Lilia Exon-Primm

    The situation under discussion is the Steubenville rape. Where two guys, even though they had been drinking were still sober enough to refer to their actions as rape, raped an unconscious girl.

    I made an analogy, to emphasize the unfair treatment of the victim. You responded with and I quote: “Let this be a lesson for everyone out there. If you put yourself in a bad or vulnerable situation, you make it more likely that something bad will happen to you.”

    Which is blatant victim blaming.

    You then go on to say (using my example): “You wouldn’t go into a bad neighborhood with your wallet and money in sight.”

    Now this might qualify as a semi-understandable argument if the victim was in a bad neighborhood, but she wasn’t. She was at a high school party. Have you heard of the sociological concept of expectation of safety? She was in a supposed safe environment, surrounded by friends and peers. The sort of environment that is supposed to allow teens to push their boundaries.

    By saying: “Let this be a lesson for everyone out there.” You basically just told every woman in existence that there is no safe place. That the same situation that would result in a man getting his eyebrows shaved or pictures drawn in his face, will result in rape for a woman. That it is not the man’s job to not rape, but rather a woman’s job to not be raped.

    That is the very definition of rape culture.

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  • Luke R

    NO you know what that’s the issue with this country. Then why were locks invented?? Why are there laws??? Why are there prisons?? Have a little responsibility for yourself and your belongings. Going “oh they shouldn’t have done that” is pathetic. Saying “oh its possible to walk past the car” youre right for you and me it is. You know what your right they shouldn’t have had sex with that girl. People shouldn’t do a lot of the things they do. Saying “even if a girl is begging for it” Is that a joke? So she’s not responsible for what she says and does because she can’t handle her liquor? Yeah your right you you cant put your vagina away on lock and key, then maybe you shouldn’t get blacked out drunk because yeah you shouldnt have to worry about it just like I shouldnt have to worry about having any crime being committed against me. But in case you have not noticed, theres some pretty terrible people out there. Also no one has answered my question. USUALLY BOTH PARTIES ARE INTOXICATED. maybe one more than the other, but yet guys are the ones who are supposed to be the bearer of “drunk judgment” I’ve seen it in the college setting a lot. All it takes is for a girl to accuse a guy of rape to ruin his reputation. And thats my issue.

  • Luke R

    And I said the steubenville case is a whole different animal. BUT then we started talking about alcohol and sex being mixed together in general. Don’t pull this back into ohhh we were just talking about the one case because we were not. My argument is for all “drunk consent” rape cases. This isnt the only one ya know? This one just caught a lot of media. And you know what sorry but victims are blamed all the time. Not just in rape cases. If someone left their keys in the ignition of their car (this is just an easy example i know i use it often) and it was stolen, I bet you would say, “Well the dumba$$ shouldn’t of left his keys in the ignition” How many times have you heard the expression, “Well he got what he deserves”? NOT saying a girl/guy ever deserves to get raped. But you know what youre right it is a man’s job to not rape. (Assuming only men rape) But you know what you’re dreaming of a utopia where every man and woman has reasoning and abides by the law. Sadly this is not the case which is why I stand by my original statement. In this world full of lunatics, criminals, and a$$holes, you should try to avoid putting yourself in a bad situation because it makes it more likely something bad happens to you when you dont. Crime especially rape and murder have been around forever, yet you call it rape culture like im trying to justify it. I’m not justifying it, I’m just not too naive to realize that its gonna happen. Which is why I take responsibility for myself and don’t rely on other people to have good judgment skills. That was a better comment though. Didnt insult my intelligence which is always greatly appreciated. I see some of your points of how there are people who try to justify rape. Not what I was intending to do.

  • Micheleh

    “This country?” I would put good money on betting that you and I don’t live in the same country.

  • Luke R

    America. Hahahaha. Good argument though… I’ve come to realize that you’re too naive to realize that there are terrible people in this world and country. People will always commit crimes. Always. Always have always will. If you don’t realize that then I feel sorry for you. I wish we lived in a world where everyone could live there lives as they pleased and not have to worry about something happening to them, but unfortunately that is not the case. Women should never be raped, . Which is why its illegal. Unfortunately, people ignore laws and do as they please which is why I made my first point which is to avoid situations that make it more likely for one of these terrible people to be able to prey on you. Not trying to offend anyone. Just being realistic

  • Luke R

    Also I looked up some stories about men being date raped by women or falling victim to sex without consent, and Everyone who commented on it, especially a good majority of the females called the male victim a liar or “blamed him” and said what i just said. “Dont put yourselves in bad situations” Yet none of you women seem to think thats an issue. I shouldnt say you women, because i feel you still think its wrong, but do you see what im getting at with the double standard.

  • Micheleh

    Oh, I am well aware that there are terrible people who do terrible things in this world. Don’t worry about that.

    However, I also live in a world where the blame for a crime being committed belongs to the person who committed the crime, not the victim of the crime.

    At least, that appears to be the case for every crime but rape.

  • Luke R

    I’m not blaming the victim, I’m just saying there are situations to avoid like in every crime. Everyone always says, “dont go into rough areas at night” why because that’s avoiding a bad situation. So me saying don’t get so drunk you cant control your own actions is me saying avoid a potentially bad situation. Also speaking of rape, when the role is reversed, I looked up cases of guys being date raped or having sex without consent while extremely intoxicated to see how the reactions differed , and a lot of the female commenters said the male was lying or “he should be able to avoid it because he’s a guy.” He should be more aware” he shouldnt put himself in a situation like that” The same crap you all call me out on when the female is a victim. Rape is the only crime that people think only males can commit. Theres a huge double standard, Guys cant report it because its seen as a joke yet the world stops turning when its a female. Rape is wrong regardless, but why does it seem ok for females to have sex with unconsenting drunk males when theyre intoxicated, but its a huge deal when the role is reversed. Women call it rape culture, and then when its not a female turn around and justify it. You are a bunch of hypocrites (Obviously not all females) Also, even if a girl accuses an innocent man of rape, it ruins his reputation. Rape cases piss me off, the ones involving alcohol, because the guy is automatically seen as an animal before facts are even heard. Even if theyre both drunk the guy is the guilty one. WHY? Yet if its reversed, its seen as a joke. I know you never said anything about male victims. I’m just shedding light, using this example, on how females do the same damn thing they cry about men doing. “blaming the victim” So thats great if you want to call me an a$$hole for “blaming the victim” aka just asking for a little more responsibility. aka saying you shouldnt black out so you have no idea where you are, what youre doing ect. Theres so much more I could argue, but youre gonna disregard everything I say with some bs comment and your double standard views of how the female is always right and never needs to have any responsibility for themselves.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Paul-Hood/546752585 Paul Hood

    Sorry you feel that way, however 20 + years of public service has proven the point. These kids are literally one step above killers. They are trash, who thought they were above the law. may their life be filled with the same pain they caused the victim.

  • http://www.facebook.com/peta.leiper Peta McKenzie Leiper

    Peta McKenzie Leiper These boys are victims. They are victims of societies that see women largley in sexual terms, of a music industry where both men and women sexualise women to within the limits of allowable content, societies that hide domestic violence and see it only when a woman dies and even then muddy the waters with all manner of other isssues. They are victims of global cultures that think it is appropriate to shoot young girls in the head for wanting an education for women, that women who are raped are guilty of adultery and whose families can commit murder because they look in the direction of a male. These boys are victims of communities where male activites (ie football) take precedent over anything that girls might do, where champion tennis players are paid based on their gender, where the most important thing a human being can do, give birth, is not given the respect that a “hero” footballer gets, where our “heros” are footballers and musicians and not the people who really show the qualities that it takes to be a real hero – when do we ALL stand up and say that we are doing it wrong. Our children are growing up weak and aggressive, selfish and without any clear standards of right and wrong. We are all responsible for what happened to this girl by not wanting to be seen as wowsers by campaigning against the images of women in our advertising, music videos and films. We are all guilty because we do not get involved when we see women in situations at home where we know that they are being abused and misued. We are all guilty that we let our daughters walk out of our homes wearing clothing that is DESIGNED to sexualise them. We are all guilty of not DEMANDING high quality education for all children that involves all aspects of learning – human relations being the most important core subject. I may be getting old and more like my mother than I ever thought that I would like, but many lives have been wrecked by this situation and it is happening all over the world. These boys aren’t evil, they are surrounded by values that give the impression that women are there for one reason – to be titillation fodder for men – and who has allowed this to happen? – we have – and then we throw up our hands in horror and wonder why? I haven’t even touched on our attitude to drugs and alcohol, but factor these in on a much more open level than I ever remember and what we have is a time bomb waiting to go off. I takes a village to raise a child and ours is too busy making money off sex to even know what the child is doing.
    The reality is that men are being fed a diet of sexualised, one dimensional women via the media (do not underestimate this part of our lives – it has a huge insidious impact on shaping our world views) and a large portion of our young girls and women are buying into it as well. I have no problem with women being sexual beings, of course we are, but it appears, if you view it from the same view as the media(music, movies adverts,even fashion) that that is all we are. Being flooded with this message from so many directions is creating a dichotomy between women being in control of their sexuality ( highly admirable) and feeling that they are able to behave in sexually aggressive and provocative ways , including allowing alcohol and drugs to at times completely devoid us of self protective judgements. We then become victims and, after viewing many comments on the Steubinville incident, have decided that we are giving over our own welfare to men, often drunk, stoned 17 year old men and expecting them to behave in a mature and responsible way when we have not. When did we decide that men were more responsible for our wellbeing than we are.

  • http://twitter.com/enuma enuma

    Thank you for having that talk with your daughters. It makes all the nasty things I have read about myself here worthwhile.

  • http://www.facebook.com/jourdahndavid Jourdahn Dāvid

    Teaching men not to rape because it’s wrong would put a huge dent in the number of rapes carried out each year. I don’t think rape will ever be eliminated entirely, but if we could change the way we view rape – as the crime that it is – that’d be a huge step in the right direction.

  • http://www.facebook.com/terri.solomon.96 Erik MacNeil

    That’z wordz 2 live by.

  • http://www.facebook.com/kstatzer Katelyn Statzer

    Jobs don’t care if you’re a sex offender, as long as it’s not a job around minors. My husband shot an attacker 15 years ago and they ruled it self defense, but it is listed on his record as an altercation involving a deadly weapon. The local staffing company told my husband they would never consider hiring him because he had a “violent offence,” but they would take a sex offender any day of the week. They told him he could sneak a weapon into anywhere and cause harm, but if you don’t place a sex offender around women or children then there’s no problem.

  • http://www.facebook.com/kstatzer Katelyn Statzer

    I wonder if the victim feels the same.